Pamela Slim is an author, community builder, consultant and former corporate director of training and development at Barclays Global Investors. She focused her first decade in business on creating and delivering training programs for large companies such as HP, Charles Schwab, 3Com, Chevron and Cisco Systems.
Since 2005, Pam has advised thousands of entrepreneurs as well as companies serving the small business market. Pam partnered with author Susan Cain to build and launch the Quiet Revolution and the Quiet Leadership Institute.
Pam is best known for her book Escape from Cubicle Nation (named Best Small Business and Entrepreneur book of 2009 from 800 CEO Read) along with her follow up book Body of Work. Both were published by Penguin/Portfolio.
In 2016, Pam launched the Main Street Learning Lab in Mesa, Arizona, a grassroots, community-based think tank for small business economic acceleration. http://pamelaslim.com/ke
She is frequently quoted as a business expert in press such as The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, BusinessWeek, Forbes, Entrepreneur, Information Week, Money Magazine and Psychology Today.
Pam is also a friend and mentor to me! Pam and I recently sat down to talk about purpose and how she helps people create meaningful work and lives. You won’t want to miss this one. Watch the video above or check out the transcript:
First, what kind of work did you use to do before this current era you’re in?
Pam: So depends on how far back we want to go. But I’ll talk about just maybe immediately before doing early stage startup and small business work.
I was a consultant to large companies. In my last real job, I was the Director of Training and Development at Barclays Global Investors financial services firm. I loved the field of training and development. I loved really looking at how you develop learning paths and leadership and really developing organizations.
When I went on my own in 1996, I spent about 10 years working in all kinds of different companies, across the US and Europe. We worked on the human side of business, just trying to make companies function more effectively.
It was just super interesting, you know! For example, in Silicon Valley, it was such a high growth mode within the late 90s, that I did a lot of work to help companies scale quickly. (I worked on) finding employees, bringing them on, and doing new hire orientation efficiently.
I’ve been through business cycles where I did the opposite where we went through a tough economic cycles, helping companies to make a fair strategic decision sometimes about downsizing. I enjoy more bringing people on rather than letting them go, but that’s what I did before I started to do my current work.
Jennifer: Wonderful. One more question about before.
Was that work fulfilling?
Pam: I loved it. I loved every minute of it. It was so interesting being inside so many different types of companies at so many different stages of growth. I felt like I got such a deep education about really many, many different types of businesses. It was just about every industry that you could imagine, every size group. I got the the privilege of really peeking in the door and working deeply. That’s the nature of the work that I do is you kind of go deep, pretty fast, where you hear what’s happening behind the curtain where you’re, you know, talking to people that are (facing) the real challenges on the human side of trying to manage effectively in business.
It felt like getting a master’s degree in human behavior and organizational behavior.
What is your current work?
The current work I do is a couple pronged. My main clients are small business owners. I help people to start and grow businesses. And I’ve done that for about the last 12 years.
Earlier, (I worked) a lot with people who were in corporate jobs who, specifically, were working on a side hustle with the intention of launching a full on business.
That was my Escape from Cubicle Nation phase. That was my blog and book.
I’ve done more work, lately, with people who are wanting to scale their business. They’ve already gotten well past the starting stage. They’re looking to develop specific IP, scale it, sometimes in licensing, you know, really developing products and programs and building the team. Those are some of the projects that I do usually for really interesting thought leaders.
Every day, I’m like, “Man, this is cool!” I can’t believe I get to work on these projects and help people whose ideas that are literally changing the world. It’s really fun.
Where I do a lot of this now, where I am right now, is called the Main Street Learning Lab. It is a brick and mortar Small Business Learning Lab right in downtown Mesa, Arizona, on Main Street. We do a lot of community events. And in particular, the work I do here, locally in the community, is for more underrepresented groups, folks of color, LGBTQ, really doing leadership and capacity building for people that come from those communities, so that they have full participation in the benefit of economic growth and development.
Jennifer: There’s so much to unpack there. I wish we could give our viewers a tour of your learning lab. Pam has this full whiteboard wall with equations. It’s very exciting. I got to spend one afternoon there and look forward to spending more time there.
You also dropped the big first book, Escape from Cubicle Nation, in that answer. Maybe some of that will come up as we move through the questions.
I’d love to hear what happened to to help you change course from that corporate consulting you were doing before to now?
Pam: I found when I was doing the corporate consulting that, especially in the later years, in some situations and some corporate environments, it was very difficult. People were facing very challenging things.
Any work mode or work situation has challenges. That’s part of what I found. It’s just inherent, sometimes, in working. If you work for yourself, you think, I long just to get a paycheck. Then if you get a paycheck, you long to work for yourself.
But I found that I was having many, many conversations over the years with people who were very curious about my own journey, like, how did I do it? How did I leave corporate to start a business?
Many people were longing for more flexibility for more purpose and meaning.
The work that they were doing, really, a chance to be maybe putting forth an idea that they felt very passionate about that would make a positive change in the world. And for some, an opportunity to make more money than they could make with certain ceilings and limits, where they were in corporate.
It was in having all these conversations, I just began to get very curious about what was it in particular about people in those corporate settings where, even with a plethora of information about starting a business – there’s tons of information even back then, in 2004, when I was beginning to work on this idea, there still was a lot of information about it. But I learned there was something unique to that journey of really the social change in social identity that happens, which is quite significant when you give up well paid often, decades of preparation, and being in a successful corporate career. And then you go into this wild and woolly entrepreneurship that can feel very exciting on one hand, but also very unsettling on the other.
Jennifer: Great point. I’m thinking about the loss of identity of losing a title that people all recognize. Going to something where you’re defining it yourself. And therefore, you’ve got an audience that doesn’t yet understand who you’ve become.
It ties in, I think, to to retirement, right. How you transition and how that can be wild and woolly as well.
Is there a kernel in there that you were called to do or was it more of a logical evolution for you?
I think it’s really a bit of both.
I have said frequently that because of the work that I do, like you, with many, many people to try to find the right business or the right career path, I understand for some people, it is a real challenge. It’s a struggle to try to find what is that work that’s highly interesting, that’s highly engaging to them. And that pursuit can be one that people spend a lot of time and resource and energy trying to solve.
Personally, I’ve never really had that same challenge, in that my curiosity tends to just lead me to the thing that I naturally feel called to do.
It’s very clear, it’s kind of strange, but all of a sudden, I’ll just be like, okay, right. I think I’m done with this. I think I want to go in this direction.
That’s how it was for me when I decided to open this brick and mortar space. That was a pretty big change from mainly just having a virtual business to where I’d actually be doing something in person, but it just felt very matter of fact, to me.
“Of course, I’m going to open a brick and mortar Learning Lab, you know, I have no idea like exactly how to structure it, or what the business model is. But clearly, this is what it is that I meant to do. ”
And I just, I follow my curiosity, I follow my interest.
It’s not totally just made up. What I find is I look backwards and see the evolution of things. One is related to the other.
For example, I find that people that are in corporate jobs, those that want to leave, I noticed a natural evolution: Ooh, I can sense summit. Some of them, not all of them, want to leave, and there’s something maybe special and unique that I could provide to help them do that.
By doing all of this virtual work, I began to look at things. “Wait a minute, what, what is happening in our world? What’s happening in my own family, being the parent of Native children – my husband is Navajo, right – and really thinking about their path and their journey in this community. That’s when my husband and I thought, “What are we really doing in our own communities to make sure that we’re helping to provide great examples for our kids of really successful entrepreneurs of color, really successful native entrepreneurs where they’re surrounded by that all the time?
And where there are some significant challenges in our community, which we do have, of representation – where people are not being provided access to opportunities. What can I do specifically, along with my husband, to make sure we’re doing something in standing up? It’s not easy. Work on a local level is very challenging sometimes. It’s very different, I found, than just generally working topically. It becomes personal. You have long-term relationships with people from many different backgrounds. Not everybody agrees, but it’s very meaningful and very worthwhile.
I’m so glad that that we decided to do this work because it’s taken us to places I don’t think we ever would have imagined.
Jennifer: I’m inspired on so many levels. I imagine that with local work your not talking theoretically anymore. You can see, because you’re right there, the real challenges. Therefore you’re impactful on more than a theoretical level too.
I’m also so inspired by your saying, “I just follow it. I just kind of know and I trust it and I go.” I think that’s the kernel, that why I really wanted to talk to you. So many of us get in our own way. We might feel the pull, but then there are all these reasons not to follow it. It’s stories like yours, of people who follow it, and now mine, I’m following mine against some old limiting beliefs, that inspire. I’m really thrilled to hear that piece of it from you.
What actions did you take to shift? What did you let go of?
Pam: This piece is really important. When anybody is making the shift, myself included, because we live in a real world, you know? I provide for my family. I need to write, pay my bills and maintain consistency. So from a planning perspective, when we decided to make a significant shift – for us recently, it was taking on the financial responsibility of a much bigger space on a monthly basis -that the way that to move from a general hunch and a feeling into actually making something come to life, is through planning. It’s really laying out, “Here’s exactly what it’s going to take in order to make it happen.”
When we first started here, I got super excited. I felt really called to to get in this space. But there were significant things we needed to do to renovate it the way we wanted to, to get equipment and materials and tables, and, you know, screens and everything.
That’s when I had to get creative. I didn’t have $40,000 sitting around right at that at that moment to put together a crowdfunding campaign. I thought, “What is one thing that I have in abundance? Amazing, generous people all over the world that are connected with me in my community. Why not do something as a strategy in order to help invite people to help us do this together?” And that’s what we did with a crowdfunding campaign.
It’s this mix of having a vision – of where it is that you want to go – (and what it will take to get there). That’s what I do with my clients.
I’ll be the first to tell you I am not the “just quit”, you know,”just jump and the net will appear” type. I do not believe that is true. I’ve seen it not happen for people. I don’t believe it’s prudent.
I know everybody has a different risk tolerance. So everybody, ultimately, is going to make their own decision. But I would much rather, in folks that I’m working with, know that we have taken some time to really look at what actually is involved: what kind of resources, what kind of planning, if you’re doing something where you’re starting a new business or career, how do you need to prepare yourself?
How do you need to tell your story differently? I know one of your ingredients is in resumes, right? How do you tell your story, if you’re selling yourself to a totally different type of company or in a different type of a role. These are concrete things you have to do in order to get the opportunities that you want. Because ultimately, you’re always trying to influence somebody, either influence a customer to buy your product or service if it’s something new, or to influence somebody who’s hiring you. (You need to tell the story so) that, even with a different background, you’re the right person for that job. So there’s a lot of work that’s involved in doing that. And that’s where I just think planning is such a critical piece.
Then, breaking something down to test and try it to get it rolling. So again, going back to our example, I found a great space. I know this is what we want.How much money do we need? All right, let’s get together the crowdfunding thing, right? Put it together, launch the campaign. And then once we have the money, then we move into that next stage, right? How are we going to bring it together.
So that’s the way I find that that following your instinct in your intuition is supported by a thoughtful planning process.
And then you break things down into actual actions that you take. There’s a lot you can do while still employed in your current job. If you’re looking for a new career, there’s a lot you can do. You have to maintain your current business until maybe a new direction is rich enough for you to quit what you’re doing now and shift over there.
Jennifer: I think that included in what you’re calling the planning stage is a lot of mind shift. A lot of that transition isn’t just physical real world transition. Part of it is how you see yourself.
The messaging example that you gave with the resume: A problem I often encounter is that they’ve done some planning for what will happen in the real world, but haven’t made that shift of, “How will I see myself? How will I introduce myself?”
As you were speaking, I could see that part of that planning phase is coming to terms with your future reality and who you’re bringing to the table.
Pam: Exactly right. We really go on transformational journeys., When we make these kinds of shifts, and that could be for really any life situation – becoming a parent, entering into a marriage or a partnership – that we become different people. Through that experience, we’re transformed in some way.
It is about examining current beliefs and seeing, “Are those beliefs going to get us where we need to go?”
It’s not an easy journey sometimes, right? It’s part fun and adventure. But frankly, it’s also challenging some days, which is why I think it makes sense that not everybody wants to do it.
Pam, you’ve been through more than one career. You’ve written more than one book. From your vantage now, how do you define success?
Pam: For me personally, (success) is in really enjoying my life while I am living it. That’s the definition I actually used in (my bood) Body of Work. I did a chapter on success and I really thought about it and that basic definition is really backed by deeper layers.
So in order to enjoy the work that I’m doing, life as I’m living it, I have to be really focused on work that I feel is meaningful. And that I enjoy.
It means that I need to take care of myself and my family financially. So that I’m not living in that stress of worrying where money is going to come from, it means that I’m living in integrity with my values. So that what I deeply believe in what I stand for, I’m actually standing up and living that way and behaving that way.
Also, I do my own emotional work so that I don’t get totally consumed by stress or fear or anger.
Yesterday in fact, just happened to be a day. I had really difficult conversations, right here locally, very challenging conversations around inclusion, about things that are very dear to me. I found myself at the end of the day really, really hot. It was one of those good points of awareness where I thought, “It’s very important that I’m engaging in these conversations. This is what I need to be doing.” But I can feel where I am a little bit physiologically, emotionally, out of balance. It doesn’t feel good and it’s not helpful, right?
That’s where I took time to try to relax, calm down, and do some deep breathing. When I came back to the situation today, it was from a much more calm perspective. That’s how I see it and live it on a daily basis.
Has your definition of success changed as you transition from corporate into the work that you do now?
No, it really hasn’t.
That’s part of that natural compass, where I had a great time in corporate. I loved my corporate job. I did not hate it. People are shocked because I wrote Escape from Cubicle Nation. It wasn’t because I think all corporate is bad. It’s because, for some people, that work mode does not fit them anymore. Or for some, it doesn’t fit them at all. That’s where I can provide the path out.
But trusting that instinct to know that I’m going to be guided into work that is meaningful and makes sense at different stages of my life is the thing that keeps me enjoying my life.
Jennifer: My hunch is that the folks who needed to or who now need to escape from cubicle nation are experiencing a shift from how they used to define success and how they’re defining it now. Something got them into corporate that was a different drive.
Pam: That’s right. And it is it’s a it’s a really nuanced thing for folks who are thinking about making a career change. It’s a little bit dangerous when we think that making that shift is the thing that is going to make us happy right with it.
Part of what I found in doing work with people who are going through that transition is to actually begin to do things in order to make them feel more grounded, happy, and fulfilled in the roles where they are.
There’s a lot of fantasy, understandably, that you might be sitting in your cubicle daydreaming about, you know, checks rolling into your bank account while you’re sipping margaritas or something on the beach. And that can actually be not helpful, because anything you do is going to take a lot of work and have challenges. But it’s more about really getting in tune with yourself.
There’s just a lot of unique things about a corporate environment. Again, just given the design, given the complexity, sometimes where it’s not usually very safe, to be completely honest about how you feel. Whenever I talk to people in corporate, we just kind of understand that many people could be sitting around a table in a meeting every week. Everybody in their head is thinking, Oh my gosh, this meeting again, we’re never going to get anywhere. But sometimes for your own career, it’s not safe to be expressing what you really feel.
Part of the transformational journey is realizing that you need your emotions in order to be able to step out. But ironically, often when you begin to do that, you end up being a better employee. You’re more connected and more honest and you take more responsibility for yourself. You don’t just blame the man. I often push back when people are completely dissing an entire work mode. For some people, they love and thrive in a corporate environment. And we need everybody in the ecosystem in order to thrive.
Jennifer: I love what you say about finding way to live in your integrity before you leave, before you make a shift, that will serve very well through your transition and afterwards.
What legacy do you want to leave?
I would love to leave a legacy of having worked with leaders. In particular small business leaders of color or coming from other underrepresented groups – where they feel better, stronger, more capable, more sure of their contribution, where there is representation in our communities that reflects who actually is in our community. Just having a more equitable community and places where people really can contribute no matter where they come from, where we have a deeper, nuanced understanding about ourselves and our lived identities.
I posted on Facebook yesterday that my wish is that we just slow down. That we slow enough to deeply listen to each other’s stories. It is so valuable to hear somebody else’s lived experience and not immediately get defensive.That if we’re listening to that lived experience, which sometimes as a white person means that people can have pain, you know, walking through their life based on facing discrimination. And if we can just really learn to deeply sit and have these conversations and be open, I found in my own life, that it adds such a beautiful richness and dimension. And it really does create this sense of connected-ness.
We need to be able to listen first. I think we all just want to go down to that deep deeper level of where we are all related. Because we are. We really are all connected, but listening first to what are people’s different perspective is so important.
So if I can play a role in reminding folks that are providing spaces where people feel comfortable to have those conversations, providing spaces where people feel really comfortable to be sharing their lived experience, then that makes me feel good.
I hope as a parent that those are the kinds of things that my kids can continue to do, to speak their truth, to have an awareness.
Last night, I was telling my 11 year old why I was frustrated (with my day). She totally understood. It felt so good. She totally understood, because her lived experience of being a Navajo child and sometimes a different dominant culture, she experiences things that I didn’t experience when I was in school. And I said, “I want to say something.” But she goes, “You’re kind of afraid to say it. Mom, I’m not afraid to say it. Like bring me to that meeting. And I am not afraid to speak up.”
I had this really wonderful feeling in my heart of knowing that she does feel so clear about who she is. She’s willing to have the hard conversations and she’s a very kind and generous person. And I know that she’d do it in a way that was respectful but also very clear. So if I can support her to maintain that kind of focus and to be that kind of a leader, I feel like I’ve really been successful absolutely those kids.
Jennifer: Your legacy through them impacts me even as you’re describing it. Plus all the work that you do. I’ve really enjoyed this theme: from theoretical and virtual to local, real individual experience, in terms of business and the people we interact with. I appreciate the value of listening to other people’s stories. Let’s get clear on their actual experience, rather than what we want to believe it is. That’s really moving to me. Thanks, Pam.
One last question.
What advice would you give for someone who isn’t sure of her purpose?
The advice I give is just to begin to tune in. Maybe get a notebook that you can exclusively look to for paying attention to moments where your your curiosity is piqued, where your emotion is piqued – where you either get really excited about something, or you get really angry about something, or you get really sad about something. Like you watch those commercials of abused animals. I remember my kids when they were really little, and they’d start to write down the number. “Mom, we have to go save all of them!” Sometimes those can be little clues.
Part of the beautiful tapestry of figuring out work that you’re meant to do is not apparent immediately. We’re often looking for some big, you know, the sky to open up and to have a singular purpose.
In Body of Work I specifically use the word routes, plural, that we can have many routes. We can have things that we feel deeply about, that we’re willing to do deep work in, that don’t have to be a singular life purpose.
Some people don’t experience life that way. They have a variety of things they do that they feel deeply about. So trying to search for that one purpose is something that can actually cause more pain sometimes.
So just begin to pay attention to things over a period of time, 30 days or so. When you look back at your notes, it’s great to do it with a friend or a coach. Look back for interesting threads. “What about if I combine this with that, that would be really interesting!” Or you might notice, “Wow, a thread! And so many things I’m interested in with this particular theme!” And that’s where then you can begin to develop further ideas about what you want to do.
Jennifer: I love it. Pam Slim, thank you so much for talking with me today. And thank you for sharing your story of your purpose and calling and how others might keep their own.